We Got hate mail ............. and an opposing article from Shirley

The Gleaner gave us a weekend treat with two anti gay posturings with one from the leading voice of The Lawyers' Christian Fellowship, LCF Miss Shirley RIchards. Have a read of them both below and see what you make of them.

We Must Reject UK's Dictates

THE EDITOR, Sir:

Reaction to British Prime Minister David Cameron's threat to withhold assistance from countries that fail to legalise homosexuality seems focused on whether or not existing buggery laws should be repealed.

This completely misses the critical issue, which is not whether Jamaica's buggery laws should be repealed, but rather should we allow any other country to impose its culture, values and lifestyle choices on us or dictate terms to us because we need aid.

Implications of giving in to such external arm-twisting are far-reaching and go beyond concerns of national pride and independence, important though those are. It severely curtails our ability to adopt policies or take decisions that Jamaicans consider best in the context of local circumstances and use of available resources, as well as what is acceptable, based on our culture, values and lifestyles.

Conceding to this threat can lead to demands to abolish the death penalty; conform to European standards regarding prison facilities/care; or other such idiosyncrasies. The need to improve conditions in prisons is conceded, but this cannot be merely to conform to standards in affluent countries, but rather must consider local factors, e.g., improving education, health care; or striking a proper balance between what is spent on offenders as against provisions to support youth who have not ran afoul of the law.

Skewed view of democracy

Cameron's threat says much about his and the Western world's concept of democracy. Clearly, in their view, only the peoples of the Western world have rights to democratic choice. The only democratic right possessed by other people is to conform to or agree with the dictates imposed by Western countries. How else could he, with great moral rectitude, consider it appropriate to impose his dictates on other countries, irrespective of the views or the consent of the peoples of those countries?

I personally have a very strong aversion to homosexuality. Nonetheless, I do not support criminalising the actions of consenting adults in privacy or subjecting individual homosexuals to personal hostility and discrimination, or allowing this factor to affect personal relationships.

However, I strongly oppose efforts to sanctify this lifestyle, by asserting its moral acceptability.

KEITH MILLER

Kingston 6

ENDS

and

Jamaica Must Not Surrender Sovereignty

Shirley Richards,

Not being satisfied with the failure of the Commonwealth heads of government to arrive at a consensus on the matter of the repeal of sodomy laws within the Commonwealth, British Prime Minister David Cameron has taken the decision to withhold British aid from non-compliant nations.

Did we hear right, or were we mistaken? Is it true that our former masters are now calling on us to repeal laws that they are not in agreement with, or face the penalty? Is it that somewhere in the 1962 Jamaica (Constitution) Order in Council which facilitated our independence, there remains a hidden, residual power for Britain and its allies to manipulate our legislature as it thinks fit? What did Gandhi, Nkrumah, Manley and others fight for?

The effrontery of David Cameron and his allies is incredulous! (Incidentally, If Eric Williams were around, he surely would have made it clear to members of the Commonwealth that 43 from 54 leaves nought!) Thankfully, however, the very system which the British left us contained within it the right to resistance. That very same philosophy was the driving force of the struggle for the independence of America - government depends on the consent of the governed.

As has been many times said before, the retention of the buggery law provides guidance to us as a country between that which is acceptable and that which is not, in terms of sexual behaviour. It is the legal underpinning of the survival of the tradition of the heterosexual family. It is a guide to parents, children and to our public officials in the matter of sexual affairs. How could the homosexual lifestyle be in the interest of humanity when it leads to nothingness and is fraught with dangers both for the individual and the society?

HIV transmitting out of control

What makes the effrontery worse is that the scientific literature has indicated that in Europe generally "HIV transmission seems to be out of control in the MSM population". If David Cameron was really interested in our welfare, wouldn't he be urging us, with tears in his eyes, not to repeal our laws, as it would appear that by liberalising their laws Britain and its allies have made a grave error?

What is also of grave concern is that in these countries where the laws have been liberalised, there seems to be an emerging tyranny which penalises any expression of dissent of the lifestyle, even where such dissent is expressed privately. Just last month in England, father-of-two, Adrian Smith, 54, was found guilty of misconduct by the Trafford Housing Trust and had his salary slashed by £14,000 after saying on his private Facebook page that same-sex weddings in churches would be "an equality too far".

Neil Addison, an expert in religious discrimination law and a practising barrister in England, commented on this case, saying: "When I was a child, people in England used to say, 'I can say what I like, it's a free country.' That is certainly no longer the case in Britain today."

It's a very similar situation with the abortion issue. On November 15, an employment tribunal in London will begin to hear the case of Margaret Forrester, who was sacked from her job as a mental-health worker because she had shown a pro-life booklet to colleagues that said women suffer from mental-health consequences after abortions.

It is also expected that by December 5, the British Government will lift the ban on same-sex civil-partnership ceremonies in churches. (This was what Adrian Smith was concerned about). Equalities Minister Lynne Featherstone is insisting that churches would have the freedom to decide if they want to offer same-sex services. However, the fear is that even if the scheme was initially voluntary, churches that do not agree to offer the services are "likely to be put under huge pressure to change their policy by campaign groups".

Not tolerated

With all due respect to Lord Gifford, QC, the situation seems to be the same in Ireland. At the time sodomy was decriminalised in 1995, it was argued by the homosexual lobby that they simply wanted to be left alone. However, since then, the lobby has grown into 'a rights industry', and now any criticism or even questioning of them and their continuous demands is not tolerated.

On Sunday, October 30, journalist Eamon Delaney, writing in Ireland's leading newspaper, the Irish Independent, referred to the "insatiable demands" of the homosexual advocates "for more and more recognition and identity". Mr Delaney expressed the concern that this will "eventually alienate mainstream opinion." http://www.independent.ie/opinion/analysis/loud-and-proud-gays-want-to-take-over-rest-of-society-2920975.html.

It is just a matter of time before persons who hold contrary views on both the issue of homosexuality and abortion will have to flee Europe and the United States in search of safe haven. (Déjà vu?)

At the same time, however, one wants to make it abundantly clear that use of violence against homosexuals is absolutely wrong and must be denounced. All allegations of violence, including violence against homosexuals, must be thoroughly investigated by our security forces with the aim of bringing perpetrators to justice.

So up, you mighty nation! Have you forgotten who you are? You are Jamaicans, for goodness sake! Within your laws as they currently are is the key for the preservation of the family, the health of nations and the survival of the human race. So do not be ashamed! Do not be intimidated! You are on solid healthy ground!

Email feedback to sprichards@cwjamaica.com.


my two cents in audio 

   Homosexuality is Not Illegal in Jamaica .... Buggery is despite the persons gender 12.11.11 by glbtqja6 

Homosexuals and buggery law

A group of young men who were described as homosexuals escaped a severe beating last month when some men began chasing them in downtown Kingston.

The young men had to run for their lives when their attackers told them to leave the area because they were encouraging schoolboys to be homosexuals. Women also joined in and began cursing the young men and described them as being very dangerous to the society.

One of the men commented that he overheard discussions on the radio that the British prime minister had threatened to cut off aid to countries that do not uphold human rights, including the oppression of gays and lesbians.

"I am not saying that people should abuse them, but my fear is that they have no right to indoctrinate the young schoolboys or lure them into sexual activities," one of the men said.

He said he was aware that people had sexual preferences but warned that "homosexuals must keep their activities to themselves and be discreet about it".

"Yes, they have no right to come out here looking young schoolboys to spoil them," a woman said.

"I observe gay men forcing themselves on the schoolboys all the time and are even offering them money," the woman added.

"I will beat them if I see them bringing arguments to schoolboys," the man said.

"Although I am definitely against homosexuals, I am not going to break down a house and interfere with two consenting adults. Once they are in the privacy of their home, they should not be disturbed, but if I see them soliciting schoolboys on the street then they must be beaten," the man said.

The recent announcement by the British prime minister has led to groups in Jamaica calling for the government to repeal the buggery law. Some Jamaicans are opposed to the abolition and have pointed out that even if the Government is minded to repeal it, there should be no accommodation for same-sex marriages or unions.

The Jamaica Forum for Lesbians, All Sexuals and Gays ( J-FLAG) said recently that "It is clear that as a country we can no longer ignore the suffering of hundreds of thousands of Jamaicans who are lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender. J-FLAG stands ready to support the Government in demonstrating its commitments to protect and promote the human rights of all Jamaicans, regardless of their socio-economic status, sexual orientation, health status, disability, work, and political and religious persuasions."

It is against the law for persons to attack or beat homosexuals and they can be arrested and charged. If homosexuals are caught breaking the law, then the matter should be reported to the police for them to investigate the matter and make arrests, if necessary.

Buggery is proven or supposed to be done so by a physical examination by a doctor on behalf of the arresting officer so as to generate a doctor's report; it must find and state as far as I know certain natural and man made substances must be found near or on the anal orifice. Just simply seeing persons and profiling them or seeing them in a copulative position is not enough. Also the sphincter muscle must be shown to be loose by some intrusion; problem however is the lack of an ability to challenge such reports which can be construed so easily.

Think on these things.

also see more posts on Buggery Law matters on Gay Jamaica Watch HERE newer posts will appear first so scroll to view older ones.

H 

Marcus Garvey People's Political Party MGPPP anti IMF/Govt Policy/UK Buggery decriminalization demand protest

Yesterday November 10, 2011 a small peaceful demonstration was launched by the Marcus Garvey People's Political Party MGPPP around 3pm just by the intersection of Knutsford Boulevard and Trafalgar Roads nearing the British High Commission building. Due to the limits placed on public gatherings nearing or beside overseas consulates and Embassies they had to remain away from the entrance. Their main bone of contention as the signs photoed below show was the debt crisis and the IMF International Monetary Fund with the supposed pressure we are under with the latest tests results or lack thereof, public sector job cuts. 


However the UK's pressure to decriminalize the Buggery Law by the withdrawal of aid threat as was proposed by their Prime Minister David Cameron were added to the agenda via the repeated shouts over a bullhorn that was rotated amongst the four man one woman team. They stayed on message for better part of the twenty minutes or so I was there.

this placard holder while having no signs speaking to buggery shouted "No Buggering"  and others who rotated the bullhorn demanded that the PM do not repeal or give in the UK pressure for the Buggery Law's reformation. The other Rastafarian below also chanted anti gay slogans intermittently. 

I sought a brief audience about the issue to do with the buggery law and a man of part Chinese extraction and who seemed to be the organizer of the activity and I had an exchange. He pointed out that we should continue the occupy Jamaica moves as launched before and that the country is in serious debt while we may not have money to pay government workers a sentiment recently expressed by opposition representative Peter Bunting, however it was rebutted by Finance Minister Audley Shaw two days ago that there are enough funds to carry us until the next budget due in March 2012. 


He stressed that Buggery was wrong and unafrican and that we should not give in to foreign pressure and that Marcus Garvey would not have approved. He said we should default on our debt obligations to multi-laterals and development our local sectors before paying a cent over. When I asked what about the penalties for defaulting he said they would just have to understand, a similar sentiment was expressed by the occupy Half Way Tree protest recently where anti gay former talk show host Betty Ann Blaine chained herself to the guard rails by the bus bay. (see video below) The MGPPP demonstrators continued as I left for work, other passers-by took photos as well and collected their pamphlet which outlined a graph of debt we supposedly owe and other pointers about their party in brief exchanges as well. The Rastafarian personalities in the group were a bit uncultured in my view in engaging myself and my friend who accompanied me to the site but they no words like battyman or sodomite were said to our faces, they seemed to be more focused on reaching the motorists in line by the traffic lights as they darted in between cars handing out pamphlets and chanting loudly.

Interestingly in her speech about inequality she never qualified in her explanation if LGBT rights or recognition were apart of that or what she thought about the call for the decriminalization of buggery.


I am expecting more spontaneous protests like this one on the plethora of issues that seem to be on the minds of many and with the visible success of the Occupy Wall Street and our versions of the Occupy phenomenon  persons are finding ways to vent. We can also seek to engage them peacefully and start or continue the respective dialogue on specifically LGBT issues with particular emphasis on sexual orientation and the buggery law's repulsion or decriminalization.


Freedom speech in full effect in Jamaica and good that the brief audience was interactive.


Peace and tolerance


H 

The following is a letter to the Gleaner and my two cents 

Holness Dithering On Homosexuality

THE EDITOR, Sir:

I READ your rather detailed and eloquent editorial of the November 8, and wish to respond to same.

While some may argue that Mr Andrew Holness' ascendancy to the post of prime minister is new, I do not believe that this precludes him from being able to adequately address the issues of homosexuality and our antiquated buggery laws. However, having seen his interview with Ian Boyne on Television Jamaica's programme, Profile, it is evident that any view, or lack there of, that he may express on the subject will be dictated by political expediency.

In his effort to satisfy our bilateral and multilateral partners, the prime minister was quick to assert that he is a libertarian on the equality side, and that Jamaica must meet its human-rights obligations as mandated by the United Nations and the several conventions to which we are signatories. Mr Holness, however, dithered on the issue of repealing the buggery law in his attempt to appease the local electorate.

He made blanket statements about civil rights in the Constitution and some cryptic utterance about expanding civil rights and economic growth. He added that Jamaica's fledgling democracy must be respected and that although it may take longer, the nation has demonstrated through Parliament that it is capable of making difficult decisions regarding social changes.

Wasted opportunity

I would welcome, however, proof that Mr Holness himself cannot only make difficult decisions, but also give direct answers to difficult questions. In attempting to obfuscate the issues, he squandered a wonderful opportunity to let both the nation and our international partners know where he stands on the issue of homosexuality and our archaic buggery laws.

The prime minister cannot serve two masters, and whereas he was more cautious in his pronouncements than Mr Golding's intolerant rants on the British Broadcasting Corporation, he deliberately failed to answer the questions posited to him. One hallmark of a great leader is one willing to let his voice be heard above those of the masses, and not have it drowned out in the chorus. He should not be afraid to lead and have the rest of his Cabinet, political party and the nation, follow; even more so, as we prepare for an election and candidates will be tempted to use the issue to score political mileage.

Already, one member of the Jamaica Labour Party (JLP), Mayor Charles Sinclair, has uttered anti-homosexual remarks as he pandered to scores of party supporters in Montego Bay on the weekend. He indicated that the People's National Party has committed to the principles of dialogue,education and tolerance in respect to "dem odda man" and "mi nuh inna it".

Rather than keeping his views on the topic to himself, he excited the crowd by his intolerance for the sake of scoring cheap political points. As prime minister and the designated leader of the the JLP, I anticipate Mr Holness' swift reaction to Mr Sinclair's remarks, which have presented a golden opportunity for Mr Holness to now display that he can in fact respond to difficult situations and truly lead by example.

Nate Long

natelong88@gmail.com

ENDS

My point of view 

While I agree to a lesser extent the tone of this letter and the fact that the question posed to the Prime Minister on the television program "Profile" hosted by Ian Boyne 

I still contend however this debate is or was too premature on the strength of a supposed threat by British Prime Minister David Cameron to withhold aid to Commonwealth countries that still have the buggery law on their books. Problem is he never named any but it was assumed it would be African states more so due to the upsurge in anti gay activity such as the Ugandan anti gay bill which we are told is supported by big conservative interests in the United States in a form of exportation of hate.

also see:  Intersections of Church and State where the connections are shown in a documentary on the issue

I would have felt more comfortable in the resolve of our rebuttals that we knew definitively that we would loose such aid and precisely why as it goes to a vital rehabilitation project as we were told by the Minister of National Security Dwight Nelson, he said on Nationwide radio recently that the particular aid went to run programs in the correctional facilities and assisted deportees to blend into general society after returning home.

More here in audio from a story published by the Gleaner entitiled "Not Ready for Gays"

On The UK Aid Removal and Holness's Reponse ........ 06.11.11 by glbtqja6

also see my report on a previous discussion on Live @ 7 

CVM TV's Live @ 7 on the UK AID Withdrawal threat & responses .......

Also see more responses from the aforementioned persons and State Minister Miss Malahoo Forte on sister blog Gay Jamaica Watch Reactions continue to come in on the UK's stance on AID to anti gay laws hosting nations

Ironically a letter was published in the same letter today entitled  

Against Gleaner's Pro-Gay Campaign

THE EDITOR, Sir:

I stand in solidarity with all those who are in opposition to the gay lifestyle in Jamaica. The editor of The Gleaner seems to be actively engaging in gay-rights lobby of late. It is sad to see The Gleaner trying to sell to the rest of us the idea that monetary, material and economic progress should be gained by courting the wealth and power of gays, and/or pandering to the wishes of powerful nations like Britain.

I would hope that The Gleaner, the leading newspaper in this our little island home, Jamaica, will not sell out itself, but will stand firm for normal family values, and for moral rectitude, no matter the pressure from abroad or at home!

The world, indeed, is in need of men (and women) who will not be bought or sold, but it does seem that The Gleaner's 'pet' argument is to appeal to the financial gain to be had by Jamaica slowly, but surely, casting off the 'shackles' of sexual decency and normality.

I remind you, Mr Editor, that morals in Jamaica are deeply entrenched in the Christian culture (even if very many of us ignore that reality, or fail to live by its standards). This entrenched cultural reality is confirmed each time we sing the national anthem, which is a prayer to the Eternal Father of the Christian tradition, and each time we swear in our leaders and court witnesses using the Bible.

If we don't want God's influence in the affairs in our land, we should also change our national anthem, remove the Bibles from the courtrooms, find some other symbol to swear by, have no devotions in schools, discontinue national prayer breakfasts, etc. It is national hypocrisy to do otherwise and remain consistent!

DERRICK GILLESPIE

St Elizabeth

Certainly we have not heard the end of this matter.
UPDATE November 23 from GLBTQJA Wordpress

Minister confirms UK will redirect aid, not cut it, for human rights violation

Andrew Mitchell (photo) said the policy had been wrongly reported as a threat to cut aid

UK/commonwealth Aid Matter & The New Developments, no aid cuts but redirecting, ethical problems on our part - 22.11.11 

also see: 

NOT READY FOR GAYS ……. GAY MARRIAGE SMOKE SCREEN REINTRODUCED ……………. POLITICAL DODGING

Peace and tolerance

H

Have a referendum on homosexuality(Observer Letter) ..... but homosexuality is not illegal

So as expected the backlash begins whenever homosexuality makes the mainstream news and as the calls for the decriminalization of the buggery law comes from both local and foreign quarters in various forms the homophobes and theocrats are crawling out the woodwork and putting all kinds of spins on their arguments. Chief among them is this belief that homosexuality,the attraction of same sexed individuals is illegal when it is buggery on a national level as practiced that is so.


Here is another letter in the Jamaica Observer that speaks to this confusion.

Have a referendum on homosexuality

Dear Editor,

As I observe the recent developments in our country's growth, the issue of making homosexuality legal has created a stir that causes me to give my input on the matter.

Prime Minister Andrew Holness has said homosexuality offends many Jamaicans. Knowing this to be more than true in a nation as homophobic as ours, it would lead to the fact that should gay activities be made legal, the crime rate would rise. Indeed, our dancehall culture over the years seems to have outlined certain protocols for treating individuals of such orientation. If they were to be allowed to practise such lifestyles, they would just become easy targets for killers.

I am familiar with the expression, "Majority rules". According to the article "Liberate Gays" by Maurice Tomlinson, gay men are estimated at 7-10 per cent of the population. Therefore, with most people rejecting the very thought of homosexuality it would seem that legalising it would be against the democratic rights of our country. A suggestion to the prime minister is that a referendum be held so the citizens can speak their views once and for all, after which the government would take the next necessary step.

Finally, being born and raised in the church, I must oppose the lifestyle on behalf of a nation that is predominantly Christian in belief. The Bible calls it an abomination (Leviticus 18:22), and in every way and form promotes sexual relations between a man and a woman. For those who like to bash the church, do so at your own pleasure - but neither does the Quran, Vedas or Torah advocate for same sex unions. After all, extremists don't blow themselves up for 72 virgin males; neither do male Hindu deities have male consorts. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Jamaica should decide what is best for its future, no matter which country threatens us, for "sin is a reproach to any people" (Genesis 19). Besides, homosexual groups in our schools have already started causing enough trouble.

Shekinah Ade-Gold
shekygold@hotmail.com

LETTER ENDS

My two cents continued:

What Jamaican Law says about Homosexuality:

Contrary to popular belief, it is not actually illegal to be homosexual in Jamaica. Being a homosexual does not contravene any of the existing laws; however, the law makes certain ‘homosexual acts’ illegal, and these laws are used to persecute gay men. They state that “acts of gross indecency” and buggery [anal sex] are illegal. Although buggery refers to anal sex between a man and another man, a woman or an animal, in practice the law is predominately enforced against two men. Lesbians are also discriminated against in the wider society, however no laws target lesbians or lesbian conduct.

Offences Against the Person Act

This act prohibits “acts of gross indecency” between males and males and females as well, in public or in private. (This is a very general term which can be interpreted to mean any kind of physical intimacy)

Article 76 (Unnatural Crime)

“Whosoever shall be convicted of the abominable crime of buggery [anal intercourse] committed either with mankind or with any animal, (males and females) shall be liable to be imprisoned and kept to hard labour for a term not exceeding ten years.”

Article 77 (Attempt)

“Whosoever shall attempt to commit the said abominable crime, or shall be guilty of any assault with intent to commit the same, or of any indecent assault upon any male person, shall be guilty of a misdemeanour, and being convicted thereof shall be liable to be imprisoned for a term not exceeding seven years, with or without hard labour.”

Article 78 (Proof of Carnal Knowledge)

“Whenever upon the trial of any offence punishable under this Act, it may be necessary to prove carnal knowledge, it shall not be necessary to prove the actual emission of seed in order to constitute a carnal knowledge, but the carnal knowledge shall be deemed complete upon proof of penetration only.”

Article 79 (Outrages on Decency)

“Any male person who, in public or private, commits, or is a party to the commission of, or procures or attempts to procure the commission by any male person of, any act of gross indecency with another male person, shall be guilty of a misdemeanor, and being convicted thereof shall be liable at the discretion of the court to be imprisoned for a term not exceeding 2 years, with or without hard labour.”

It would do some of these writers well to research the laws before writing to the editors of these newspapers and what is even more annoying is the newspapers carry the slush whilst I agree with freedom of speech and expression we must also get the context correct and the ethical basis as to our presentations be they for or against, given the sensitivities and fragile stability involved here. It is very interesting also how quickly and conveniently the Bible or sections of it are pulled but we ignore the other abominations. Whilst also we remind our detractors that homosexuality is NOT ILLEGAL in Jamaica we best be mindful that they alongside a pandering government or administration my very well adjust the law to reflect as close as possible to it to appease the so called majority. The Prime Minister indeed said that parliament and by extension the nation must be allowed to speak on the issue without perceived interference but that future referendum barring proper discourse and intervention from an already aloof advocacy that has not postured itself well during the slower quieter years in as far as prepping the LGBT population and the public on legal, civil and community issues will have very little time to do so and very little room to maneuver as well I fear. We need to start now, pushing for rights is one but on an ignorant and phobic population is another.

Peace and tolerance

H

Prime Minister Andrew Holness on the UK AID Withdrawal threat on Profile

 In a two part episode of Profile the second to be aired next Sunday hosted by Ian Boyne Prime Minister Andrew Holness made his first major interview on Prime Time and second overall as Prime Minister on mainstream television the first being on Smile Jamaica on the same Television Jamaica Station. The Gleaner carried a headline entitled Not Ready for Gays which suggested the Prime Minister was not ready to engage the issues associated with homosexuality in Jamaica and the so called threat levelled by The United Kingdom Prime Minister David Cameron to withdraw aid from countries that continue to host anti buggery/sodomy laws on their books. Many like myself think that Mr. Cameron's statement may have implications on the ground as the perception is that we are being dictated to by powerful nations. 


State Minister for foreign affairs Senator Marlene Malahoo Forte also of the Jamaica Labour Party had indicated that we will not be dictated to and that we are a democracy. She had also said in her short television interview that: "We are sovereign nations and each country has to be allowed room to work out issues understandably countries with an interest on an issue will bring pressure to bear on others but we are a sovereign nation and we are committed to protect our people need to work out the issues, There are a number of ways that the matter can be addressed if it is a matter that can be dealt with bilaterally then we can begin through the diplomatic channels but the issue has to be addressed from many angles there are issues on the ground that would require the input of the Jamaican people .................. it doesn't matter how many laws we legislate we cannot legislate how people think, I think its time to invest more in educating our people I think that is the more appropriate starting point but it is also important for a discussion to b started in an earnest way to deal with the real problems that arise out of this issue."

The came the million dollar question and issue as posed by Profile's Host Ian Boyne:

Ian Boyne: 

"You have talked about continuity with some of the policies of the Golding administration one of the famous pronouncements of former Prime Minister Bruce Golding um... was contained in that  BBC Hardtalk interview that famous Not In My Cabinet statement is that one of the policies you intend to continue? there are gay Jamaicans who believe that in the words of President Obama that they are being discriminated against because of whom they love, are you willing to look at the buggery law ?

PM Andrew Holness:

You've asked a very important question .... it's two parts ..um .. continuity is a significant code word for the investment and international financial markets it is used strictly as it relates to ensuring that our international financial partners are comfortable with the transition it eliminates uncertainty from the market and we have used that term effectively. clearly the opposition has tried to make more of it than what it really is but you will  note that the recent standard and poors statement was very clear about their concern about a change of government and therefore continuity is a code that they understand very well ..... clearly for economic and fiscal policy .. that's very important, in my inaugural speech it was very clear that I took a pragmatic approach to governance I listed out all the things we have done which we have made significant achievements in which we must continue and I've also listed out things that are work in progress things that we would want to do for example advancing the micro-economic agenda for growth that's significant ..... now let's get back to your question .... I just wanted to raise this continuity issue (interspersed with Ian's push for a direct answer) we have heard the statement made by the British Prime Minister and i have to wrestle with that in my mind as to how to treat with it (Ian - "as a young transformational leader") yep, um .. and let's be clear, let me just tell you where I am, um I'm a libertarian on the social side but I'm fiscal conservative on the economic side, right, so my view on this matter is that Jamaica must meet it's human right obligation and the human rights obligations are set in the United Nations fora by conventions and by an large I believe we have done fairly well in meeting them, I think that ... particularly we have to do more for children, I think so, now  .... in terms of civil rights so let's make the distinction there are human rights which are basic rights everybody has the right to life, freedom of association (Ian concurs) and the state must protect those rights and I think our police by and large have tried we have issues no doubt about human rights but anyone looking on our force will say that within the last ten years, I think, I mean we're not there yet but at least we still .... (Ian interjects "our laws still allow them to break into the homes of homosexuals and arrest them")  but we're coming as I say .... and I am saying we must ..... um ... at least acknowledge that we must meet the standard of human rights. In terms of civil rights now this is the rights that the country gives in its constitution ...um right across the world there are different permutations and combinations of civil rights um Jamaica has just enshrined civil rights in the Charter of Rights .... and we are constantly engaging in the debate ... what we have to give credit to in Jamaica is that the debate is going on ...

Ian Boyne:

Are you going to look at the Buggery Law?

PM Andrew Holness:

which is what I am .... I'm building the context, somehow you think I am not answering the question (Ian: "I understand what a difficult what a difficult thing that is for a country like Jamaica") no, no, no I want you to bear with me (Ian: "Yes I will I will") I want you to to to to bear with me ....... I have to take the time to explain it, because it can be (Ian: "They're watching us all over the world, not just Jamaica") so let's be clear so Jamaica has to embark on an expansion and deepening of our civil rights that is just as important as improving our economics, how that is done? must be where government facilitates the discussion and government through its parliament must be prepared if these matters are to come before it through its parliament to take action ... now here is what I am saying we have to be very careful, our democracy here must be respected we have a democracy it takes maybe longer than some other democracies to make decisions but we have demonstrated in our parliament the capacity to take difficult social issues and address them, we have done that with for example .... um ....capital punishment I remember that debate um ..... was a no confidence .. it was what we called a a a (Ian interjects: "A conscience vote") forgive me a conscience vote of which I participated in that debate and almost everyone in parliament did but we were able to freely express our views

Ian Boyne:

But you stood in the majority though?

PM Andrew Holness:

No, my vote was not for (Ian: "The parliamentarians stood for the majority?") but but but my issues is if your argument is your parliament stands with the majority of the opinion of the people, is your parliament wrong? 

(Ian: "But that is with universal rights, there are some cultural specificities") and I am saying to you that if those but but  (Ian: "Certain cultures allow certain things") Ian we just said that, as it relates to human rights, those are universal those are set in convention and we must meet what is set in conventions by virtue of the united nations as far as possible (Ian: "We should ok) then there are civil rights which are determined within the context of your parliament of your your civil society enshrined in your constitution  

Ian Boyne:

What if the UN and Europe particularly begin to interpret human rights and begin to add gay rights as a part of fundamental rights? 

PM Andrew Holness:

But now you've gone into speculation

Ian Boyne:

Europe is moving in that direction     

PM Andrew Holness

But I'm saying that you're still gone into speculation, you know listen we acknowledge um ... the interconnectedness of the world and we are not unaware of the fact that the position is tied to support and aid, of course but the same countries that preach um ... strengthening democratic institutions can't on the other hand ignore democratic institutions and I want to be clear that Jamaica has to take a progressive path but it must respect its own institution in how it gets there (Ian: "Sometimes those two are in contradiction you know?") but that's the beauty of it (Ian: "Sometimes taking the progressive path might need leadership") be clear, leadership can't go without the people, so leadership must, the debate must be engaged, people musts say I am willing to do this or willing to do that I am not willing and the debate must go on, what I want the international community to understand is that Jamaica is growing as an institutional democracy and if you hear how police talk which would be very heartening where a statement was made and immediately the commissioner came and corrected it shows you that institutionally you see things are moving, it may be incremental, it may not be as fast as they want it to but I ask that the support of a process, it is a democratic process, it is the process they have asked us to engage on, support us on that process.  

Ian Boyne:

The appeal is going out, Prime Minister Andrew Holness answering the tough issues 

Interview ends for part two next Sunday evening at 6pm

UPDATE November 9, 2011

Here is my audio on a Gleaner article entitled "Not Ready for Gays"

On The UK Aid Removal and Holness's Reponse ........ 06.11.11 by glbtqja6

See what you make of it

Peace and tolerance

H